Routing Question

[astudaker]

I am curious as to the technique for routing using a large bit such as a raised panel bit (approaching 3 1/2 inches in diameter). I know you can't "hog" out a large amount at one time especially when working with hardwood without ruining the wood. And I know you should always do the end grain sides first so that if you have tear out it will be eliminated by the following passes on the other sides. My question is. If you need to make several passes (say 1/16 inch each pass to remove 3/16 inch of wood) do you make your passes all at the same time on the end grain then go to the remaining two sides and do your passes or do you do single passes on end grain than single passes on the other sides then back to the end grain etc. till you've made all three passes? Just wondering what others have discovered so I don't need to create any more precision firewood than I have to.

[John Siers]

I've been going to some local woodworking classes, and in one the instructor made raised-panel doors (using a shaper, though, not a router). According to him, you make all the passes you need on one side to get it done, then move on to the next side. As you mentioned, he also said do the end-grain first.

BTW, he also said that if you are going to use those big bits on a router, you need at least a 2hp router, probably a 3hp. His recommendation: if you don't already have a router table, save up the money and get a shaper instead. He says a shaper can do anything a router table can do, but the reverse is not true.

After watching his demo, the wife decided she wanted raised-panel doors for her kitchen cabinets (30 of them!). So I talked her into getting me a shaper... wish all my tool purchases could be that easy...:)

Regards,
John Siers

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Astudaker, I would like to weigh in here and add my 2cents. To answer your question quickly you do all four sides in each step. This way when you raise the bit there is no discrepency from each step because it is very hard to match heights. That is also true if you are doing more than one door, you do all doors at the same time for each raise of the bit. Now here is where I am going to disagree with John. I think the better investment is in a good router table with a good router and like he said it has to be at least a 2HP - 3HP . It must be variable speed because you want to slow the speed way down on those big bits such as a panel raiser. The speed is usually listed on the package if buying a good bit. If not you can always check the web for charts. The big difference in a router table and a shaper is the cost of bits big difference!!! You can do so much more with a router than a shaper in the fact that you can take it out of the table and use it by itself. Yes you do end grain first. It is possible to get tearout on the long sides also because on one of the sides you are going to be going against the grain. If this happens with the first pass take even lighter passes and use a sharp bit at all times. Good Luck!!!

[dougle40]

I tend to agree with you John , a good router is by far a better investment and a good router table along with it makes a perfect team . Just try to put a decorative edge on a circular or oval piece . Just steer away from the cheap router bits and there shouldn't be any problems . The rule of thumb is " across the grain , with the grain , across the grain , with the grain " that way any tear-out you get will be cleaned up by the next pass . And yes , do all the pieces at one height before you raise the bit for a second pass .

[John Siers]

Doug & John:

I'm not disagreeing -- a good router is definitely a necessity (have a 1-1/2 hp fixed-base DeWalt now, looking to move up to a 2hp plunge model). There is no question that you can do things with a hand-held router that you can't do on a table, especially with routing jigs, etc. Have a pantograph rig from Craftsman that I am experimenting with -- cuts letters for signs with a router (can't do that on a shaper or a router table).

But between a router table and a shaper, I'll take the shaper, especially for large-bit stuff like raised-panel doors. If I were buying regular shaper cutters, it could get expensive; but most shapers have collets available that let you use 1/4" and 1/2" router bits. I plan to do raised-panel doors on a shaper, using a CMT 1/2" router bit set. A shaper always runs at a slower speed than a router since it is intended to swing big, heavy bits; but mine is a two-speed, with higher speed available for small bits.

Granted, the shaper itself is a chunk of change -- my wife paid around $800 for the 2-hp Shop Fox. But that was HER money, which she considered well-spent compared to the $4,000 a local contractor wanted to re-do all of her kitchen cabinets. In 34 years, I have never been able to deny my wife anything she really wanted; but I will admit I am not above exploiting her wants for my own purposes... like a new shaper for my shop! :)

Regards,
John Siers

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

John I wish you all the best with the shaper and I am not going to disagree with you on the fact it is nice to have a shaper to do the door thing but I read your post and you say you are going to use router bits anyway. Seems to me a bit odd. I too own a shaper a $1200 Delta that I seldom use just because of price of bits but when it comes to doing doors you can't beat it. The big key to using those big bits is to slow the speed down. Anyway good luck with your project and keep us posted as to how it is going. The CMT bits are a good choice, I have that set and they stand up well.

[John Siers]

John T.

I (and my wife) first saw a shaper used to do raised-panel doors at a woodworking class at the local woodworker's supply shop -- instructor used the CMT bits with a Jet 1-1/2 HP shaper, and he was the one who said you would need a BIG (3hp recommended) router to spin those large bits. With the shaper, he turned out a sample door in about 15 minutes, making only one pass per cut!

Unbeknownst to me, my wife spoke to him afterwards and ordered the same Jet shaper; but the dealer had trouble with the deliveries from Jet, and offered her the 2HP Shop Fox instead. At that point, she told me about it and asked me whether she should go ahead with it (Gee, honey, I couldn't get you that 14-ft bass boat you wanted for your birthday. Will you settle for an 18-footer instead??? Silly question!). :)

In any case, the Shop Fox is an awesome machine -- reasonably compact but weighs as much as a small refrigerator! And I did have to run a 220 circuit for it -- first tool in my shop that requires 220 volts. It also has a BIG dust collection port built right into the fence system (she also bought me a Shop Fox dust collector!!!)

I'll give you an update on the shaper vs. router table question once I've had a chance to give it a real workout...

Regards,
John Siers

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

John just a word of caution, I don't know what kind of wood that guy was using for demonstration but I do know many demonstraters at woodworking shows use MDF wood which is very easy to cut and is very straight and true. If you are going to raise oak doors I would highly recomend doing them in several passes. Or any other hard woods maple or cherry. Yes keep us posted how you like the shaper.

[John Siers]

John T.

Instructor was using MDF for the demo, and did comment that hardwoods would probably need to be done in two passes for the panel itself, though the rails and stiles could be done in one pass with a shaper and the CMT bit set.

I will probably be using red oak -- built one project with it recently, and the wife loved the look of it (finished with natural Danish Oil and Arm-R-Seal).

Regards,
John

[john_p]

every reply is right, if i had to chose just one, it would be a 2hp router. but there are times when i wouldn't dream of using the router instead of the shaper. BTW end grain 1st, with red oak, 1/3 or less of a deep cut, both ends of each door, then both sidr of each door. repeat, 30 doors time 3 passes times 4 sides. must be a sweet wife. a good hint is to make the last pass very very thin, 1/16 or less, no chance of burnning, very little chance of chip out, i would start with extra stiles and rails. have you found red oak that isn't so pourous? seems like all i've seen for a few years has gaint pores? i've had to fill some with putty. heated then worked in with 600 grit wet.. just a few thoughts

[Servcman]

One item overlooked here is a radial arm saw. I have a craftsman 10" saw with the router attachment for it. this setup has allowed me to do alot of internal routing without the needs for specialized jigs as i can control the movement of the bit better and it is not hidden from view by the base. i just use a chisel to square up corners and so far "knock on wood" things have gone good for me.

[John Siers]

Servcman:

I also have a Craftsman radial arm saw (an old one with the digital readouts for miter, bevel, rip, etc.), and it is certainly a multi-purpose tool. It served me well for many years, and I even used the cutter head to make raised-panel doors at one time.

My "woodshop guru" does not like radial arm saws -- claims they are not as safe as other shop tools because of the blade exposure and the tendency to "climb" and come back at you if they encounter an obstruction in the wood; but I am still using mine, mostly for wide crosscuts. I now do all my rip cuts on a table saw, and make raised panels on a shaper; but the radial arm saw did all of those things for me when it was the only power tool I had.

I have a 12" miter saw (DeWalt); but it can only handle wood up to certain widths, particularly on angle cuts. On the other hand, nothing beats the miter saw for things like compound angles, crown molding, etc. It is also much more portable than the radial arm, and that's useful for outdoor construction projects (originally bought it when I was building a deck).

The shaper (2hp Shop Fox) is an awesome machine, and since it has the collets for 1/4" and 1/2" router bits, I have sold my old router table.

I did take one bit of grudging advice from the "guru" regarding the radial arm saw: got myself a CMT blade with a 5-degree negative hook angle. He claims this blade is made for radial saws and has less tendency to hang up and climb over when cutting. Seems to work very well.

Regards,
John Siers

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

I see this subject has been revisited.

I also see some make raised panel doors with a radial saw. I have to tell you of all methods shaper, router, radial arm saw, that has to be the most dangerous.

A method that has not been mentioned is the use of a tablesaw. It could not be easier. the big key here is to have a carriage that slides over your fence to support the door while standing on edge. You can tilt the blade to the angle you want. Very easy to do. Norm Abrams uses this method alot.

Well just another 2 cents worth.

[John Siers]

J.T.

Yup... making raised panels on the radial arm saw is probably the most dangerous way to do it (though I managed to make a few that way without hurting myself when I was young and foolish :D ).

Anyway, now I use a shaper, with a CMT raised-panel door 1/2" router bit set -- works very well, though hardwoods do require two passes for the panel itself.

Norm Abrams never ceases to amaze me, and I suppose you can make raised panels with a table saw (at least, I can picture the kind of setup you are talking about)... though I'd like to see him make an ogee-cut panel that way, and I'd have to think the rails and stiles are a pain (dado cuts, tenons?).

Regards,
John Siers

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

John,

Yes Norm is amazing and he uses a door making bit set in his router when making doors with ogees in them. He also uses the router for straight bevel doors also. He just likes to show the are different ways of doing things and the proper way of doing them. I only wish I knew half of what he forgot.

[John Siers]

John T.

<<I only wish I knew half of what he forgot>>

Me too, but I'd probably forget half of what I learned, anyway :D

One of the great things about woodworking is that there is usually more than one way to do just about anything. The woodworking guru at the shop where I buy most of my stuff had a neat jig for making finger joints on a table saw with a stacked dado blade. I didn't have a stacked dado at the time (and wasn't ready to spend a couple hundred bucks for a good one); but it occurred to me that his jig would work just fine on my shaper with a straight router bit in the chuck. Tried it, and it worked just fine.

Yes, there are lots of ways of doing things; but some are easier than others -- especially if you have to do a lot of the same thing over and over. As for raised-panel doors, my wife wants the whole kitchen re-done (two new cabinets, plus a face-frame job on all of the old ones). By the time it's done, I'll need to make over 30 doors, including a couple of six-footers for the pantry closet. Was thinking about getting a big 3-hp router and a router table; but the woodshop guru convinced my wife that a shaper was the way to go (and that if she wanted the kitchen done, she ought to buy it for me). Hey, who am I to argue with the experts ;)

Anyway, I just made the first of the new cabinets (and the three doors it required), and I'm convinced they were right. With the shaper and the CMT raised-panel bit set, the doors were a LOT easier than I thought, and they look great. She wanted natural-finished red oak, so that's what she got. Well... actually the cabinet itself is oak-veneered MDF; but the face frame and doors are solid oak. And yes, recalling an earlier thread on the subject, I did make two passes for the panel itself; but the Shop Fox shaper has a rack-and-pinion fence system that makes that very easy to do.

For what it's worth, I'm inclined to think that anyone who plans to do a lot of "table" routing should consider a shaper. Router tables (even without the router) are getting a lot fancier and more expensive these days, while both Jet and Shop Fox have got some pretty good deals on 1-1/2 and 2hp shapers. You'll still need a hand-held router, of course, because not every routing job can be done on a table; but it's also nice to avoid the hassle of having to detach the router from the table when you need to use it separately.

Regards,
John

[john_p]

i wish i had half of norms clamps, he does know 20 ways to do anything, i met him once at a show where he was a speaker and he is a really nice guy, but most wood workers are... a shaper does a better job with large diameter bits then a router table, i never did buy attachments for my sears radial arm, i guess i am wasting it. i only use it to cross cut wood to wide for my chop saw.

[John Siers]

John P.

That's all I use my radial saw for anymore, crosscuts that are too wide for my miter saw (i.e. anything more than about 9" wide -- less if it is not a 90-degree cut); and I know that with a proper "sled" I could be doing those cuts on my table saw.

Still, I like that old radial saw and hate to get rid of it. I was my first "serious" power tool, which my wife bought me for my birthday many years ago when we could barely afford it. I did a lot of cutting with it back then, even using it for rip cuts (very dangerous, even with the kickback pawls), and panel doors (with the molding head -- also dangerous).

Anyway, I survived and it survived, and it still has a place in my shop.

John Siers