Epoxy Trouble!!!

[marjorie]

Hey all,

Maybe someone can help... I have a problem with epoxy...

I have a 4 gallon kit of tabletop epoxy purchased in May of 2007.
It has been stored in a cool (approx. 70 degrees) dark place
(bedroom where curtains are never opened). Within the last two
weeks I finished up the first two gallons. I started the second two
gallons... I made a two or three pours, 4 to 6 pieces, without any
problems.

Let me mention I have been doing epoxy resin clocks since 1989.
I ran into this problem once before and just failed to get a sample
back to Dick for analysis.

Anyway back to the problem. I usually pour/finish two pieces at a
time. With the second or third pour out of the new bottles I noticed
the resin jug had curdled, or as a southerner would say "clabbered".
It's like it is full of air bubbles. It mixes with the hardner but has a
milky appearence. I always time my mixing by two minutes. It looks
like liquid styrofoam. When applied as finish coat it has to be very,
very thin or it will set up with that same milky appearence.
Tourching it works normally as long as the top coat is, as I stated
above, very thin.

When it has set, the surface has a misty appearence as if small air
bubbles surfaced and bursted upon surfacing. It does set normally.

I know this post is long-winded but I have learned that to get a
knowledgeable answer you must give all availible details.

Anyway if someone can help appreciations in advance
tictac89
marjorie
ronnie

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Ronnie

I have not used table top resins for a very long time but will give a few suggestions that I learned years ago. I do not know what your system is but since you have been doing this for a very long time you are more experienced than I ever will be but some times you need to stop and just rethink your steps.

First thing is if you use any kind of pourous woods or material such as oak you need to seal the wood or item or it will give off air bubbles which can be trapped in the bottom layer because that will be the one that dries the quickest.I assume you do your clocks in layers because you do not want to pour more than about 1/8" thick at a time with that type of epoxy. The other thing that will cause alot of air bubbles is the agitating of the mixture when mixing the resin and hardner together. You want to stir rapidly but not agitate like you would get if you used a drill motor to stir together. I have been playing with resins of a different type for use with bottlestoppers and I have found that if I use a popsicle stick and just keep stirring I can limit my air bubbles. Of course you are using a greater amount of resin but the theroy is the same. Also on the subject of air bubbles I have been using a couple different methods to draw out all the air bubbles and these may work for you as well. One I have not got set up yet is a pressure pot but that will draw them out by either pressure or vaccuum but like I said I have not gotten around to setting my pot up yet. But what has worked is vibration. If you have a tool such as a scroll saw or maybe your tablesaw that has a bit of vibration to it as it is running you can set the project on top and as it is running it will force the air bubble out. You can make a vibration table and use a random orbital sander to vibrate the box or table as you place the piece in them. I used the hairdryer method when I did a bar table to help the airbubbles back when. The thing with that is you have to be careful of blowing dust.

Now on to the milky color. Here it is imperative to mix equal parts 1:1 and when the hardener is added you will see the product turn milky color but you need to keep mixing until it turns clear. The tendency is to not mix enough. It is a fine line you have to walk between mixing enough and pouring before it hardens but this is controlled by not doing more than you can for as fast as you can work. Also weather plays a part and if it is too humid it will take longer to turn clear. I do not know if any of this helps or not but I do realize it is a long winded answer but I am like I you and try to be thorough. My experience with using those type resins maybe limited but the theroys are basically the same with the polyester resin I have been playing with. Good luck and hope to see some pictures of your work here. We love pictures. :)

[marjorie]

Thanks for the quick reply Jt, but:

Seems after all I did NOT give all the details.

My wood is sanded smooth, stained (water base stain), and double
coat sealed with a glue water mixture (two parts glue - one part
water.

I only do one layer unless I have a blotch and have to re-cover.

I am mixing the same as always, stir gently for at least two minutes.

I use 3/4" medical grade tounge depressors. The popcicle and jumbo
crafts sticks are too "fuzzy".

Pouring amounts vary, 3 1/2 to 5 ounces of each type at any one time.
(Once in a while I cover 16 X 20 inch plaque pieces which
require 8 ounces each type.)

Torching, small propane torch, has always worked for air bubble
removal. I let stand anywhere from 12 to 17 minutes before torching.
(Too soon bubbles appear after covering. Too long finish mars because
of having to torch too heavily).

I am using marked pour cups, mixture is pretty exact, amounts are
not a problem.

I do only two pieces at a time so running out of time is also not
a problem.

My method which has worked for almost 20 years is not the problem.

To be specifically specific, "THE PROBLEM IS IN THE BOTTLE OF RESIN".

As I mentioned in my previous post. After making two or three pours
the resin as it came out of the bottle seemed curdled/clabbered with
what seemed to be air bubbles in it and when mixed with the hardner
it turned milky.

I will also say that in my almost 20 years of doing this "BOTH BOTTLES
HAVE NEVER BEEN OPEN AT THE SAME TIME", so as Dick tried to suggest
several years ago when I had this problem before "THE BOTTLE OF RESIN
COULD NOT HAVE BEEN CONTAMINATED WITH HARDNER".

Any other thoughts? JT, Anyone?

thanks again in advance
marjorie
tictac89
ronnie

[William Young]

Sounds like you are very well experienced with it . Perhaps just a bad batch with a mistake at the manufacturing level.
Have you contacted the supplier or the manufacturer about the problem?
I would think that a refund and/or replacement is in order . .Good luck in getting to the bottom of that problem.
W.Y.

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Ronnie

I am sorry I have no other suggestions only that this may have been a bad batch of resin. I have had this with epoxies which is similar. So maybe you can get a refund or just chalk it up to experience. Not the answer you are looking for but with all your experience you have done everything possible so everything points to a bad batch. Good luck and like I said we all would like to see some examples of your work.

[William Young]

Agreed . . . basically what I said seven hours ago.

Ronnie .
I would also like to see some samples of your work when it is finished. I love the deep high gloss of that epoxy finish . It used to be popular at craft sales around here on slab clocks but I have not seen any locally for years. Possibly because the product has got so much more expensive than it used to be.

I am not sure if the epoxy/resin product has a shelf life or not like so many other finishes do . Although you stated that you got it in 2007 , that should be fine as far as shelf life goes but how about if the supplier that you got it from had it in stock for a long time. I have bought different finishing supplies over the years that were past their shelf life right off of store shelves. That might be something that you would like to take up with your supplier . Of course most will say it is fresh stock even if it isn't but the most reputable suppliers will tell the truth and come good for a replacement with up to date stock.
W.Y.

[marjorie]

Thanks for the input guys.

Since shipping is so expensive on this stuff, I wanted to try to work it out before I contacted the supplier so I could tell them I had tried other avenues to resolve the problem. I will post some pictures maybe Sunday if I can find on the HDD where some finished product pics are. I got a C:, D:, F:, and G: hard drive as well as three externals. I can't remember where they are as I had some when I was trying to sell on eBay. Underline the word trying.

ronnie

[JTTHECLOCKMAN]

Looking forward to the pictures and now you must tell us your EBAY experience too. I have sort of tried that avenue but it was on a friend's account so do not know how much that affected sales.

[marjorie]

Hey Guys,

Thanks again for the input about my troubles.
I finally found some information that let me reclaim the bottle of resin.

I was searching back thru some of the papers I received from Dick Holley
when I first started using his finish kits.

I kinda sorta determined that my bottle may have experienced
"temperature shock" which had caused "crystalization". The remedy was to submerse the bottle is a sink of hot water until the water cools then remove it a let it come to room temperature.

I made a pouring this morning and it seems to have worked.

Thanks again all.
Pictures will be forthcoming eventually.
ronnie

[William Young]

Good tip.
Thanks for passing it on.
W.Y.